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JOSE: A lot of the assumptions,
like the emergence of Creole,

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have been in the last 200, 300--

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I don't know how long.

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MICHEL DEGRAFF: 17th
century, roughly, in Haiti.

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JOSE: Is there
any other language

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that are not Creoles that we
know developed in the last 500

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years?

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MICHEL DEGRAFF: Well, if
what I'm saying is right--

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English itself--
modern English--

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00:00:39,139 --> 00:00:41,174
has developed not that long ago.

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Because middle English was up
to 14th, 15th, 16th century.

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English was developing in the
16th century, 17th century--

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English the way we know it.

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So that variety of English
is relatively much younger

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00:00:55,955 --> 00:00:59,492
than what Chaucer spoke.

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So there is a
notion of that fact

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that we call English,
English, can be an illusion.

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Because there has
been many English

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throughout the centuries.

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If you focus on English as
a broader umbrella, then,

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of course, it's old.

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But if you focus on
English as we speak it now,

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it's relatively recent.

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So even back might not make
the right cut between, say--

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and, actually, sign languages--
did you mention sign languages?

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JOSE: Yes.

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Because in some sense,
maybe part of the bayous

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could be that even
the first Haitian--

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at some point, we are
saying that Haitian Creole

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is a separate
language from French.

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so at some point, there was a--

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MICHEL DEGRAFF:
There was a break.

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00:01:51,811 --> 00:01:54,146
JOSE: Yeah, like
the first instance

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that we consider this
a different language

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happened fairly recently.

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MICHEL DEGRAFF: That's right.

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JOSE: So I was wondering if
could that give more evidence

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00:02:03,189 --> 00:02:06,559
that this bias could be racial?

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00:02:06,559 --> 00:02:08,061
Is there any other
language that we

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00:02:08,061 --> 00:02:09,996
know has emerged
fairly recently and we

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00:02:09,996 --> 00:02:12,365
see how they treat that
differently compared to Creole?

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00:02:12,365 --> 00:02:14,300
MICHEL DEGRAFF: You
mentioned Spanglish, right?

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00:02:14,300 --> 00:02:16,870
One could say that Spanglish
might be even younger, right?

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00:02:16,870 --> 00:02:24,043
SPEAKER 1: It's a lot
younger, maybe 30, 40 years.

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00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:29,079
But the thing is, it's
not considered a language.

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00:02:29,082 --> 00:02:31,017
MICHEL DEGRAFF: Well,
actually, it's changing.

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00:02:31,017 --> 00:02:34,988
I heard recently that,
at some universities

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on the west coast--

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00:02:36,156 --> 00:02:38,057
I was told that by
Professor Spadofa.

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Me and Noam Chomsky were
at an interview with Noam.

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And she gave us the news
that these universities

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00:02:47,100 --> 00:02:49,636
were going to start teaching
Spanglish as a language.

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00:02:49,636 --> 00:02:51,137
SPEAKER 1: You know which one?

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MICHEL DEGRAFF: I have to
listen to the interview again.

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She did tell us.

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But I don't remember which
one, but it's a first.

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It's the first in the
history of Spanglish.

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Finally, there is
on university that's

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00:03:02,482 --> 00:03:06,920
agreed to teach
Spanglish as a language.

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00:03:06,920 --> 00:03:08,688
I think that's
remarkable, right?

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00:03:08,688 --> 00:03:09,956
SPEAKER 1: Yeah, it's awesome.

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But it's not what
Jose is talking about,

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just because English
and Spanish were

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00:03:16,329 --> 00:03:18,498
somewhat prestigious languages
in and of themselves,

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and the whole point of Creole
is that it's not prestigious.

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JOSE: So I have to think.

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00:03:26,806 --> 00:03:31,978
Because at the same
time, I know there's

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a lot of people in Haiti
who them themselves don't

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think Creole is a language.

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So maybe I'm being like, well,
Spanglish is not a language.

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00:03:41,579 --> 00:03:49,560
In some sense, it's because
you know two languages.

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And you purposely mix them
because it's convenient.

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00:03:52,599 --> 00:03:56,069
But I feel like nobody
would say that is a--

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MICHEL DEGRAFF: But
actually, languages

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have emerged like that.

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00:03:58,771 --> 00:04:01,975
In Canada, there is a
language called Michif.

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00:04:01,975 --> 00:04:08,581
Michif is also a mix of French
and some Algonquin language.

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00:04:08,581 --> 00:04:12,986
There is one in the Indies
called Media Lengua.

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In fact, even the name
tells you that it's

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00:04:16,656 --> 00:04:18,156
a mix of this [INAUDIBLE].

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00:04:18,156 --> 00:04:19,459
It's called Media Lengua.

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00:04:19,459 --> 00:04:20,860
What is Media Lengua?

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00:04:20,860 --> 00:04:24,130
It's a mix between
Spanish and Kichwa.

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You see?

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00:04:26,132 --> 00:04:30,903
And Media Lengua is the
language of the community.

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and actually, that case
is very interesting.

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00:04:32,872 --> 00:04:35,742
Because Media Lengua was
created really mid-way.

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00:04:35,742 --> 00:04:40,413
Because in the valley, you
had the rich colonizers,

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the Spanish people.

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00:04:41,714 --> 00:04:45,518
And in the top of the mountains,
you had the Kichwa speakers.

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And then, in between,
you had these people

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00:04:48,354 --> 00:04:50,490
who were, in terms
of the social class,

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00:04:50,490 --> 00:04:54,761
in the midpoint between
the rich Spaniards

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00:04:54,761 --> 00:04:56,596
and the oppressed
Kichwa speakers.

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00:04:59,159 --> 00:05:01,730
And they developed
Media Lengua as a way

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00:05:01,734 --> 00:05:04,037
to show that they
were different,

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00:05:04,037 --> 00:05:06,706
that they were not exactly
like the Kichwa speakers,

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00:05:06,706 --> 00:05:10,376
but they were not at the level
yet of the Spanish speakers.

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00:05:10,376 --> 00:05:13,313
And they used that mixing.

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00:05:13,313 --> 00:05:15,915
So at first, one could imagine
that people would say, well,

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00:05:15,915 --> 00:05:16,916
it's another language.

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00:05:16,916 --> 00:05:21,921
It's just this random mix of
Kichwa words and Spanish words.

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00:05:21,921 --> 00:05:24,657
But now, Media
Lengua is a language

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00:05:24,657 --> 00:05:28,995
spoken by a community of people
who, at first, were bilingual.

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00:05:28,995 --> 00:05:34,367
But now their main
language is Media Lengua.

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00:05:34,367 --> 00:05:36,636
JOSE: When you combine
languages, that's how it feels.

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00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:45,340
I really only combine
English and Spanish

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00:05:45,345 --> 00:05:48,848
when I know the other person
feels most comfortable speaking

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00:05:48,848 --> 00:05:51,617
that.

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00:05:51,617 --> 00:05:53,386
MICHEL DEGRAFF: I
think, Ose, you'll

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00:05:53,386 --> 00:05:56,022
be interested to read about
the history of Media Lengua.

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00:05:56,022 --> 00:05:57,590
Because I think what
you're describing

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00:05:57,590 --> 00:05:59,792
in terms of that feeling
that's you know both,

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00:05:59,792 --> 00:06:02,061
and that you're speaking to
someone who can understand

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00:06:02,061 --> 00:06:03,796
both, that's what's
been described

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00:06:03,796 --> 00:06:05,998
by people who've looked at--

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00:06:05,998 --> 00:06:08,067
So the key linguist here
that you should look at,

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00:06:08,067 --> 00:06:14,407
his name is Pieter Muysken.

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00:06:18,070 --> 00:06:20,940
So look up Pieter Muysken.

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00:06:20,947 --> 00:06:25,385
OK, so it was a beautiful
work describing the origins,

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00:06:25,385 --> 00:06:29,322
the structure of Media Lengua.

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00:06:29,322 --> 00:06:32,125
And then what you have to do as
you read that is ask yourself,

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00:06:32,125 --> 00:06:36,162
is he describing what I feel
now when I speak Spanglish?

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00:06:36,162 --> 00:06:37,964
I don't know what the answer is.

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00:06:37,964 --> 00:06:41,968
But that's what comes to my
mind as you describe Spanglish.

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00:06:41,968 --> 00:06:45,304
I think of Media Langua.

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00:06:45,304 --> 00:06:47,106
JOSE: Most Mexicans
don't identify too much

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00:06:47,106 --> 00:06:50,476
with the use of Spanglish.

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00:06:50,476 --> 00:06:53,112
MICHEL DEGRAFF:
Well, that's exactly

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00:06:53,112 --> 00:06:54,147
the way this was created.

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00:06:54,147 --> 00:06:55,548
Because Media
Langua, the speakers

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00:06:55,548 --> 00:07:00,453
wanted to create a
new identity for them.

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00:07:00,453 --> 00:07:02,688
They didn't want to see
themselves as if they

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00:07:02,688 --> 00:07:07,527
were purely Kichwa speakers,
nor were they Europeans.

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00:07:07,527 --> 00:07:11,864
So they wanted to create this
compromise between the two

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identities.

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00:07:12,899 --> 00:07:20,173
And they use that mix
of Kichwa and Spanish

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00:07:20,173 --> 00:07:23,209
to create a new
badge of identity.

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00:07:23,209 --> 00:07:25,745
Now I don't know whether that's
the same thing for Spanglish.

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00:07:25,745 --> 00:07:29,048
But from what you describe,
it sounds interestingly

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00:07:29,048 --> 00:07:30,683
reminiscent to that story.

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00:07:30,683 --> 00:07:32,452
STUDENT 2: You may have
just touched on it,

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00:07:32,452 --> 00:07:35,922
but I was going to ask if--

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00:07:35,922 --> 00:07:39,692
he was talking about
how Mexican's don't

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00:07:39,692 --> 00:07:43,229
identify with Spanglish,
and they don't speak it.

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00:07:43,229 --> 00:07:49,068
But is that how these speakers
of French and Algonquin--

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00:07:49,068 --> 00:07:50,303
MICHEL DEGRAFF: Yeah, Michif.

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00:07:50,303 --> 00:07:51,204
STUDENT 2: --is that
how they felt when

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00:07:51,204 --> 00:07:52,438
they developed that language?

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00:07:52,438 --> 00:07:55,575
Because that could be part
of the evolutionary process.

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00:07:55,575 --> 00:07:58,678
He could be describing that it's
[INAUDIBLE] own way of starting

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00:07:58,678 --> 00:08:00,580
its own language.

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00:08:00,580 --> 00:08:03,382
Eventually, the
umbilical cord gets cut.

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00:08:03,382 --> 00:08:05,384
MICHEL DEGRAFF: So I think
the history of Michif

155
00:08:05,384 --> 00:08:08,421
has another twist, which is
that there was a gender issue.

156
00:08:08,421 --> 00:08:13,226
I think there was an issue
of there were Algonquin women

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00:08:13,226 --> 00:08:16,929
meeting with French speakers.

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00:08:16,929 --> 00:08:19,365
So there's another
aspect that's not

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00:08:19,365 --> 00:08:23,636
part of neither Spanglish
nor Media Lengua, which

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00:08:23,636 --> 00:08:30,042
is the gender part of it and
with who spoke Algonquin,

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00:08:30,042 --> 00:08:32,078
and who spoke French.

162
00:08:32,078 --> 00:08:35,014
And it was mostly women
who spoke Algonquin.

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00:08:37,909 --> 00:08:39,650
go ahead.

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00:08:39,652 --> 00:08:42,488
STUDENT 3: I feel like there's
certain dialects of Spanish

165
00:08:42,488 --> 00:08:45,591
that, in some ways, use
Spanglish legitimately,

166
00:08:45,591 --> 00:08:46,993
like maybe that's
how it would be.

167
00:08:46,993 --> 00:08:49,495
Like, "par-kare," which is not
how you actually say to park

168
00:08:49,495 --> 00:08:50,296
the car.

169
00:08:50,296 --> 00:08:53,099
But that would be considered
Spanglish, wouldn't it?

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00:08:53,099 --> 00:08:55,935
[INTERPOSING VOICES]

171
00:08:57,630 --> 00:09:00,670
JOSE: For example,
I'm from the border.

172
00:09:00,673 --> 00:09:03,142
I'm from [INAUDIBLE].

173
00:09:03,142 --> 00:09:06,445
And we definitely use a
lot of words that have

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00:09:06,445 --> 00:09:10,550
English origin, like "troka."

175
00:09:10,550 --> 00:09:13,519
We use "troka" instead
of [INAUDIBLE]..

176
00:09:13,519 --> 00:09:17,123
I didn't know that was the
origin until I was 17, 18.

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00:09:17,123 --> 00:09:18,724
MICHEL DEGRAFF: So
you were using troka

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00:09:18,724 --> 00:09:20,192
without knowing
that was was with--

179
00:09:20,192 --> 00:09:20,960
JOSE: Yeah, yeah.

180
00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:22,461
Because it doesn't feel like
an English-- you're just--

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00:09:22,461 --> 00:09:23,029
MICHEL DEGRAFF: Troka.

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00:09:23,029 --> 00:09:23,529
JOSE: Yeah.

183
00:09:23,529 --> 00:09:24,196
And do, OK.

184
00:09:24,196 --> 00:09:25,831
Of course it looks
like a Spanish word.

185
00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:30,100
It just feels like
you're borrowing

186
00:09:30,102 --> 00:09:36,375
words more than
something independent.

187
00:09:36,375 --> 00:09:38,344
I only really combine
English and Spanish

188
00:09:38,344 --> 00:09:41,447
when I'm speaking with somebody
who the bass line is English.

189
00:09:41,447 --> 00:09:45,151
But I have to alternate.

190
00:09:45,151 --> 00:09:45,718
I don't know.

191
00:09:45,718 --> 00:09:46,085
It doesn't feel like--

192
00:09:46,085 --> 00:09:46,652
I don't know.

193
00:09:46,652 --> 00:09:47,053
MICHEL DEGRAFF: OK.

194
00:09:47,053 --> 00:09:49,055
So that could be an
interesting research project

195
00:09:49,055 --> 00:09:51,824
because in this case, you
would be your own subject.

196
00:09:51,824 --> 00:09:55,528
So I think that's a fascinating
question that you could ask.